« reminiscing .... | Main | libzillas »

December 31, 2004

THE MAGNITUDE.........

How many is 140,000?

I've always been one who appreciates a visualization when people talk about huge numbers.

Click below and keep in mind that each X represents a person, a face, a life story ended. For most there are families who feel loss. In many cases, these X's are entire families who have been wiped out.

I pasted in 141,924 X's.

It's sobering.

X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X 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Posted by Moxie at December 31, 2004 1:36 AM |icon_su.gifStumble It! |85x10-digg-link.gif | del.icio.us

Comments

Hello Moxie,

Before I forget let me wish you a Happy and Healthy New Year. I hope the new year brings you the peace of mind that will allow you to shun petty rivalries, petty stereotypes and that it opens your heart to the suffering of all, not just those swept up in a terrible natural disaster but those dying before the guns of American GI's and American foreign policy as well . And to HEAR the truth when ever spoken and the lies as well. Like Powell saying with a straight face that the US is the most generous nation on earth. A lie or just ignorance? The US ranks 42nd. out of the 42 nations that give foreign (non military) aid on a percent of GNP basis. (In fact the countries of the EU gave more on a cash basis). But wtf, it took GB 72 hours to get up to speed on the breadth of the disaster, whilst you and I clearly new the magnitude in 12 hours, because we cared to pay attention and watch CNN and could easily extrapolate the outcome. I knew there were over 100 thousand deaths the second I heard the magnitude of the quake and the location.

Posted by: mike at December 31, 2004 2:56 PM

Ive read that some heavily populated islands have ceased to exist and they are saying that fatality counts have not been conducted in some regions that are inaccessable. New projection is 400K.

Posted by: mdmhvonpa at December 31, 2004 3:33 PM

Try the murder of a million non-muslims in the Sudan.

Oh... they were murdered by Black Muslims and Arabs, not Mother Nature, so that's cool.

Posted by: Aaron's Rantblog at December 31, 2004 4:14 PM

Not to be cold hearted but:
Put a little perspective on it please
Highest Death Toll Caused By A Cyclone
A hurricane which hit the Ganges Delta Islands, Bangladesh, between November 12 and 13, 1970, killed an estimated one million people.

Guinness


Posted by: JT_Hunter at January 1, 2005 5:22 AM

thats a brilliant way to visualise 141,000 ++. oh man.

Posted by: stephanie at January 1, 2005 9:49 AM

I see Mike ends the new year by calling the kettle black. Oh well. Some things will never change. A person living in an intellectual prison will remain there even if others unlock the door, open it, and beg them to leave. In the end, they are still going to have to walk out of there themselves. Hopefully Mike will find the strength to do so.

On another, far more important note : Happy new year Mox.

Posted by: Trapeze at January 1, 2005 10:52 AM

JT, just because other tragedies have been worse doesn't make this one business as usual.

Mike, those numbers don't include private generousity, just governmental. I don't rely on the government to give for me.

Posted by: carson at January 1, 2005 7:44 PM

Well, sweet darlin', think about this:

As of 10:33pm CST 01/01/2005:
Tsunami death toll: 150,000 and counting
Contributors to Amazon's Red Cross Disaster Relief: 145,016
Contribution dollars: 11,649,687.48

Hugs,

Suli

(email me, my phone # and email have changed)

Posted by: Suli at January 1, 2005 8:38 PM

Mike,

Try paying for relief supplies with a percentage. Supplies cost money, and the last I checked the US was supplying 350 million of the $500 million pledged so far (as of MSNBC.com on 12/31).

Posted by: Confederate Yankee at January 2, 2005 1:58 PM

The Libertarians pretty much sum up my stance on non-disaster aftermath-related foreign aid........

http://www.lp.org/issues/foreign-policy.html

I don't care if the Scandinavians have a higher GDP percentage of foreign aid, we aren't a socialist nation and we still give the most on an individual and governmental level. Mike doesn't understand that less taxation can produce a robust free market economy that can shoulder over 40% of the world's foreign aid demands at 0.1% GDP.

By breaking down our domestic trade barriers, we've elevated the economies(and quality of life) of many developing nations while destroying some of our domestic industries(agriculture, textiles) in the process.

Our trillion-dollar military(that the Left craps on regularly) is providing invaluable humanitarian support as we speak. Money and supplies don't walk off to their intended targets so if the Germans haven't forgotten the Berlin Airlift yet, we're providing logistical support as well. You can thank our Navy for keeping the shipping lanes open as well. We're being generous to the free world just by providing them a free ride on their own defense obligations by protecting them with our military. The EU wouldn't be able to pony up so much of their GDP toward foreign aid if they didn't have us to rely on for their security.

Posted by: reagan80 at January 2, 2005 7:59 PM

One might want to consider adding a simple, single lower case x ... for Mike's brain.

Posted by: Dan at January 3, 2005 3:19 AM

Dan,

I like the way you think, however Mike is my token brainless liberal.

In the event that he HAD a brain, a single lowercase x would be appropriate.

But being compassionate conservatives we just try to humor him and the short bus he rode in on to get here.

Posted by: Moxie [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 3, 2005 3:27 AM

While the tsunami was a tragedy, 10 times that many people die from malaria each year, yet get 1/10 the attention.

Posted by: Joe R. the Unabrewer at January 3, 2005 5:04 AM

Sorry to be a hardass on this (no I'm not really, but it sounds polite), but you can take steps to prevent malaria.

Deet based products, covering your body after dusk, and taking anti-malaria medications.

If you still get infected you can take Chloroquine, quinidine or quinine, or the combination of pyrimethamine and sulfadoxine.

And explain to me the last time 150,000 people died of malaria simultaneously in the course of a day or two.

And do tell, what drugs can be used to prevent tsunamis? Southeast Asia is interested.

Posted by: Moxie [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 3, 2005 5:14 AM

Burma refuses to releases their numbers of dead.
Military govt, won't let relief workers in, only saying 90 died. Look at the map, it had to be bad.
These guys are major assholes, and captain assholes, and colonel assholes. Bet that Aun San Suu Kyi died in the tsunami.
Ask about Burma, keep asking, looks like No korea is running things.

Posted by: max wyeth at January 3, 2005 6:32 AM

Trapeze-

You, of course said nothing in your post.

Carson-
You Do live off the government in many respects, ask Moxie or Raygun to inumerate them. I think the private generosity of the American public is wonderful and have said nothing ever to the contrary.

Raygun-

Still shuffiling around in the rigid paragraphs bout the world economy and our providing security for the EU? Security from whom?

We give the most on a cash basis, yes I did say that too, didn't I. But if that figure had any relavance you wouldn't be failing statistics. I think the phrase "shoulder 40% of the world's foreign aid needs" is indicative of how delusional you are. Ya know Ray, I wonder if you would send back a delivery to your folks home of some government subsidized medicine that was needed to treat their MS or some other illness. I wonder......

Moxie- Was that you I saw handing out Malaria drugs in Africa the other day? Or handing out the money to the victims so they could PAY for these drugs? You have the same illness Raygun suffers from: Cheap talk and bootstrap fever.

Posted by: mike at January 3, 2005 7:45 AM

Mike brings up a great point. Since more people die of malaria than will die from this natural disaster, we shouldn't bother with helping the victims of the tsunami.

Sorry if I misrepresented you, Mike: What is your point, exactly?

Posted by: Rob at January 3, 2005 8:34 AM

mike,

I want to thank you.

For a moment, I was swept up by visualizing the incredible magnitude of this tragedy.

After I read your comment, however, I was reminded that the really important things to remember are (1) this tragedy isn't really that significant, given the fact that American foreign policy causes deaths (2) if I must think about this tragedy, I should focus on Bush's performance in relationship to it, because while it's not good to be an American exceptionalist, it is good to constantly see all events through a prism of how America reacts to them and criticize accordingly.

Thanks again for bringing a a sense of perspective!

Love,

Posted by: Hubris at January 3, 2005 8:35 AM

Rob,

I did not interject the malaria issue; I simply reminded Moxie that the fact that drugs to combat Malaria exists is not the same as the medication in the mouths of those who need it. Go back and read the thread.

Hubris,

Typically, intelligent folks can think about complex issues from more than one viewpoint. If I choose to look from a particular angle it does not mean there are no others; only that that one interested me at that time. If your defensiveness causes you to feel that I am diminishing your President or our country or the disaster, by inferring that I think there is ONLY one way to “visualize” this tragedy you are being disingenuous in the service of your lame cause: the thoughtless adulation of America. This country is many things: compassionate, cruel, tyrannical, generous, evil and saintly, rich and poor. Why is it so hard for you to take this all in and respond in a way that will help diminish the bullshit. You may visualize this tragedy as you see fit.

A pledge of 15 million dollars when this event began was a blunder indicative of a quality of the Bush administration that I find distasteful. Like the state department hack that made the rounds of the radio talk shows as the Iraqi debacle started, assuring the public that this “liberation” would not cost even one billion dollars. Was he lying or just misinformed? Was Powell misinformed when he said 15 million or just talking out of his ass?

Posted by: mike at January 3, 2005 9:38 AM

If your defensiveness causes you to feel that I am diminishing your President or our country or the disaster, by inferring that I think there is ONLY one way to “visualize” this tragedy you are being disingenuous in the service of your lame cause: the thoughtless adulation of America.

Your blinders continue to make you miss a point.

Look at the subject post; there is nothing about the adulation of America or Bush. I'm not defensive, dude; you can carry your hard-on for Bush around, I just didn't think this was the proper forum for a rank stream of piss.

Frankly, I don't really give a shit about how Bush or America is perceived right now. This was just one moment to reflect on a horrible human tragedy. Oh, sorry, I forgot. We're never just human beings; we are ultimately and wholly defined by our political affiliation, correct?

Typically, intelligent folks can think about complex issues from more than one viewpoint.

So true; how sad that you yourself are confined to just one.

Posted by: Hubris at January 3, 2005 10:06 AM

Mox, is this Mike the same pathetic weed who stalked you even though he was married and--shudder--liberal?

Way to use a horrifying catastrophe to advance your petty political goals, Mike. Why don't you fly to Thailand, gather the dead bodies of some tsunami victims, take them to the White House, and lob them over the fence? What matters now isn't helping the victims. What matters is that little Mikey gets to score a few points in an off-putting inappropriate Internet diatribe.

Liberals always claim to be patriots, but conservatives say liberals hate America. Well, Mike just proved us right. Notice he's blaming the U.S. as a country. Although the Bush administration has increased overseas giving beyond Clinton's total, the amounts Mike complains about have been established over several administrations, not all of which were Republican. Oops, what a giveaway. Thanks for dropping your pants and letting us see the real you, pea-brain.

And of course, he's also full of shit. The US spends several percentage points of its GNP providing for the defense of the whiners in Europe and other whiners around the globe, and we handed the Iraqis $87 billion and pushed other countries to forgive their loans. But Mike doesn't count those things because, well, they prove he's wrong.

In the end, the US will bear the biggest single chunk of the cost of tsunami recovery, not just through government expenditures, but through the generous contributions of private citizens. And that will burn Mike's ass, because he would rather see tsunami victims starve than see the U.S. come to the rescue once again.

How come Mike's wife never posts here? You should forward his pesky emails to her. She'd probably love to know how fascinating he finds you.

Posted by: Steve H. at January 3, 2005 10:27 AM

Mikey, I read the thread. Me read real good. I was merely pointing out that you had nothing to offer the posting or subsequent discussion. You can't even think rationally about the matter at hand; Bush Derangement Syndrome has progressed so far that you actually sought to draw equivalence between victims of an act of God and "those dying before the guns of American GI's". Ironically enough, the U.S. military is reponsible for shouldering a large logistical chunk of the rescue and relief efforts in SE Asia as we speak. Maybe our boys will manage to machinegun some locals while they are there, thus validating your pathetic excuse for a discussion point. Turd.

Posted by: Rob at January 3, 2005 10:53 AM

Steve H-

"And that will burn Mike's ass, because he would rather see tsunami victims starve than see the U.S. come to the rescue once again."

What the fuck are you talking about? Once again we see the non-agenda riddled RW brain at work. What must pass through your pea brain to arrive at this horseshit? Why are you not too embarrassed to post this? Could it be that you, like your esteemed government will say anything to besmirch a questioning dissenter.

My wife? Stalking Moxie? I would suggest that you are having flashbacks but young as you are I could not imagine you flashing back to anything other than your mom's dry, hard, non-nurturing nipple that never left you sated. Life is tough Steve, get over it.

Posted by: mike at January 3, 2005 1:05 PM

Rob rests his case. Mike is a turd.

Posted by: Rob at January 3, 2005 1:26 PM

Mikey,

I don't know what we would do with ourselves if we didn't have you to laugh at each day.

Keep up the good work! You make me lean further to the right with every comment.

Posted by: Moxie [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 3, 2005 2:23 PM

Well Moxie, you are starting to gleen my plan! Soon you will be off the edge.

So, who was the stalker?

Posted by: mike at January 3, 2005 3:13 PM

Actually, it's "glean" but I wouldn't expect a liberal to actually know that.

Posted by: Moxie [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 3, 2005 3:16 PM

I knew there were over 100 thousand deaths the second I heard the magnitude of the quake and the location.

You fuckin' knew this, mikey? And you didn't call someone and warn them? You bastard!

Oh...or...wait, maybe you just want us to be impressed with your armchair insights?

That settles it my mind...you're either a bastard or a a pitiful wannabe. Either way, it's looking like a sucky way to start 2005.

Posted by: Joan of Argghh! at January 3, 2005 4:05 PM

I have never seen the Vietnam wall but a replica came to the city I was living in. Just seeing the names on the wall was very hard, because of the magnitude. I have been to a military cemetery. They are orderly and laid out differently than the foreign ones from WWII, but still impressive. I wrote an essay when I was in high school, (I graduated in 1954) on Flanders Field, WWI and WWII.
I won some sort of prize for it but have forgotten what. It was 51 years ago! But I still tear up at the mention of the poem "In Flanders Field the poppies grow, between the crosses, row on row."
It actually means something.

Posted by: Ruth at January 3, 2005 4:11 PM

Moxie, don't be a such a twit;trying to impress me with the regularity of your involvement with spell check will get you no succor. Correcting spelling? you have too much leaning to the right to do and it is, we all know, the provenance of pedants.

Wen u cnt undstnd wat Im sying then spek up until thn itis in por taste.

Yes, Joan I knew, isn't that interesting? You didn't? Gee, I guess it sucks not knowing the outcome of an underwater 9.0 earthquake, Joan, but I'll cut you some slack. FYI I called Scotty McClellen to give him a heads up but he was tied up briefing W on earthquakes and helping him learn the names of all the countries surrounding the epicenter. W wanted to know if the US could tie our assistance to future sanctions on the birth control practices of these countries. He surmised that the high death toll might be a sign that they were not practicing abstinence effectively and should we withold aid until they got with the program. So I hung up after holding for 72 hours while they talked it through.

Posted by: mike at January 3, 2005 4:41 PM

How about we look at it all like this;

Each disaster/plague/terrorist act is an opportunity to do good. I'm happy and proud that each and every time my country does good. Does it always do the MOST good? I doubt it. Does it do 'more' good than anyone else. Betcha ass we do skippy.
Has anyone seen the Al-Qaida Navy flying sorties for relief this week? How about the Palestinian Relief effort? Me neither. North Korea? Syria? Iran? Someone Drop me a line when these
parasite nations finally kick something in.
Oh by the way, if my self-loathing, left wing liberal fellow americans really want to do something good for America, lets make good on the promises to move to Canada or France.
Bon Soir
Skurn

Posted by: Skurn at January 3, 2005 4:44 PM

Mike, what was your wife doing while you were holding the phone for President Bush? Same thing she does while you chase conservative girls via email?

Posted by: Steve H. at January 3, 2005 4:57 PM

Steve H-
Yes.

Posted by: mike at January 3, 2005 5:02 PM

I'm sorry that I haven't stayed on this thread's topic, folks. Here we go again.......

"Still shuffiling around in the rigid paragraphs bout the world economy and our providing security for the EU? Security from whom?"

Where have you been, Mike?

Putin's cronies probably poisoned the pro-Western presidential candidate in the Ukraine elections so the Kremlin could pull the strings there. The Russians and Chinese just announced that they are supposed to be holding joint military exercises sometime this year. Don't forget that our military is almost single-handedly fighting a bunch of zealots that want the West to capitulate to the whims of Allah.

"But if that figure had any relavance you wouldn't be failing statistics."

I will admit that I never took a statistics course. However, I did take statics. Maybe the engineering department made a typo on the curriculum chart.......

"Ya know Ray, I wonder if you would send back a delivery to your folks home of some government subsidized medicine that was needed to treat their MS or some other illness."

Don't worry about my parents. They can still afford Blue Cross. I would love to see the magic of government subsidized medicine make the lives of my parents easier in their twilight years. I heard it can do wonders for flu vaccines.........

"A pledge of 15 million dollars when this event began was a blunder indicative of a quality of the Bush administration that I find distasteful."

If we made an initial aid pledge of 100 billion dollars and found out that tsunami damage and deaths were minimal(500 perhaps?), we'd look pretty stupid when we withdraw our initial offer after taking into account the new info. You didn't want Bush to senselessly jump into the Iraq war, so why do you want him senselessly giving away billions for the tsunami relief effort before the situation could be properly assessed?


"Typically, intelligent folks can think about complex issues from more than one viewpoint."

This quote brings me back to this one.......
[but those dying before the guns of American GI's and American foreign policy as well]

While you focus your viewpoint on the handful of innocent people accidentally slain by American troops today, I'll focus mine on the innocent victims of the terrorists that call democratic elections "un-Islamic" and threaten voters, election workers, and candidates.

I'm curious about what Mike thinks about the Iraqi Guardsmen that are being killed by the terrorists. Is he going to call them traitorous American collaborators like he did the South Vietnamese(right before he got banned BTW) refugees living here?

Posted by: reagan80 at January 3, 2005 5:09 PM

Hi Ray,

You may have passed statics but what happened to reading 101? I did not suggest the Bushies opened with a monetary gambit of either millions or billions. I simply wished I had said (there was a post I wrote that did not get sent) that Powell could have come out, assured everyone that the US would do all that it could to help relieve the suffering, offered condolences and so forth. Instead he stood up like a rube at an auction and bid 15 million (less than the republicans are going to spend on the ignore the nation) It was embarrassing. Then the back peddling began and the "just kidding" shuffle started. Dignity is like a tight collar to these guys.

I am thrilled that we are helping in a big way, it makes me proud to see our helo's landing in these washed out towns. The suffering is enormous and the help necessary.


I think the slaughter of the iraqi's that are trying to put their country back together is criminal. I think the destruction of their country by American forces under the pretense of trying to install democracy is criminal. So Ray what have you learned?

Posted by: mike at January 3, 2005 5:48 PM

Ya' Know,
Isolationism is starting to look pretty good from here.

Posted by: Skurn at January 3, 2005 6:49 PM

Reading Mike's posts... not only does he suffer from BDS, he also has a problem common to a lot of people, Democrats especially. Namely, after a steady diet of Clintons and Kennedys over all these years, he has no concept of how an effective manager works. As far as Mike knows, hogging the spotlight and the "fire, ready... what's an aim?" procedure are the right way to do it.

When the Superior Man has done his work, the people say, we did it all ourselves. The true sign of a really talented manager is that the place runs smoothly and the boss goes fishing early and often.

Crawford, Texas. GEORGE BUSH is cutting brush. a MINION approaches

MINION: Mr. President, there's been an awful tragedy, a tsunami in the Indian Ocean.

GEORGE BUSH: Horrible. What do we have in that area?

MINION: Well, there's fifteen million in the cash account ---

BUSH: Send that right away.

MINION: [offers paper] Sign here, sir.

BUSH: [signs] Is that all?

MINION: No, sir, but we're still getting the facts together.

BUSH: Make it quick. Don't we have a carrier down there?

MINION: Yes, sir. Minion B is getting the CO on the horn to find out what they can do. There's Marines, too.

BUSH: [nods] Marines are good, lots of strong backs for cleanup. Keep me advised. [Restarts chainsaw]

----

Once the sytem's in place it's automatic. No emoting required.

Regards,
Ric Locke

Posted by: Ric Locke at January 3, 2005 7:21 PM

Ric Locke-

You wish. I try to say more focused on the facts.

Powell-We pledge 15 million. Very sad! End of news conference.

World-Did he say 15 milling? Isn't that a little less than Julia Roberts gets for a picture these days? Gosh! What the fuck are they thinking? Well two packages of jello does feed a family of four and if it is strawberry the kids will like it too.

Bushies- Guys, we are getting slamed on that 15 mil offer. Who's idea was that? You, Condi, Christ, this ain't Moscow in 1957, we are spending more for the ignore-the-nation next week. What do ya think we should do? Scotty? Karl? Any ideas? The boss is busy yanking his chain saw, and Colin wants to leave town for the holidays, so, we gotta act fast. Maybe we can use a version of that Pell Grant Fake-out thing?? Reduce the budget 25% but tell everybody we are going to reach more victims with a better stratic plan! We reduce the aid 50% to each victim and serve 50% more victims! Less money more help! Karl, that's pure genius. That's my idea of expansion. Good idea. That's big. Scotty go tell the press, fuck it add 20 mill more, 35 million. Get'm off our back will ya?.

Powell- Good news folks, we are raising our pledge to 35 million!!! But, where our old pledge was going to reach only 1 million victims, we are assured that 35 million will get one jumbo jello to 10 million victims! Great news eh? Are we one fucking generous nation! Come on, pat my back, please!

Press- Gee, now they're offering 33% of what the average yearly income was for the 400 highest earning americans. What are these guys smoking? What do you think they'll do next? Offer the cost of one F-22? Maybe Bill Gates will bid a 100 mill, or Sandra Bullock, who hasn't made a decent movie since her father lost the super8, will toss in a million just to shame them. What a bunch of loosers.


Ric, I tend to think it followed my scrip, not yours. But we will never know right?

Posted by: mike at January 4, 2005 7:19 AM

I dont quite understand why people get so upset over the media coverage of...

a giant three story wave wiping out whole populations caused by a 9.0 earthquake verses say... malaria.

now if you were CNN, FOX, NBC, etc, what would you run? sorry if the 3rd world cant buy medicine to ward off mosquitos. i honestly dont care... and to be honest, i dont really 'care' about SE Asia. Its just sad, but not something a nice Makers on the Rocks, a Davidoff and a Plasma TV wouldnt correct.

Go Natioanls! F' Anacostia!

Posted by: Doug at January 4, 2005 7:33 AM

You guys are wasting your time trying to talk sense into our esteemed correspondent Mr. Mike. If you look upwards, you will see that he was proclaimed a turd at 10:53am yesterday, and his turdliness was confirmed at 1:26pm. He has done nothing to refute this, other than saying "korecting my spling iz in pur tast, Mocksy" and other hilarious mewlings. His last post suggests that perhaps the government should equate disaster relief funding with the annual earnings of rich citizens (you know, like George Soros).

I think all of us can agree that the one question that remains in this horrible tragedy is "how in the hell did Sandra Bullock have $1M laying around?"

That, and why Mike's furniture on his website looks like crap that fell off the Ikea truck.

Posted by: Rob at January 4, 2005 9:16 AM

OOOhhhhhh Rob!

A personal assault! Boy am I mad! You don't like my furniture.

Disaster relief from a country with our GNP should be a little higher than what one of our wealthy citizens could cough up for an apartment in NYC.

"Mocksy" is funny, I didn't write that, but it is funny.

Posted by: mike at January 4, 2005 9:51 AM

See, Mike, if you had originally posted something like "our government's disaster relief efforts should be increased thusly, and here's why" then you wouldn't have had everyone taking shots at you. Instead, you took the lowest of roads, and certainly earned the Turd Of the New Year Award.

Actually my comments were not a personal attack; if any of my friends made such idiotic statements, they would be ridiculed as well. You may just be an okay person with mild psychosis, so don't take it personally.

But your furniture sucks, yes.

Posted by: Rob at January 4, 2005 12:35 PM

Hey Genius Mike......

What's the going daily rate for the rental of an aircraft carrier battle group?? Huh.........

Posted by: Hangtown Bob at January 4, 2005 3:40 PM

Let me rehash what I think are Mike's arguments, such as they are:

The initial pledge of $15 million dollars was cheap because, well, it was cheap. And because anybody with any brains knows the extent of the damage. Problems: No, you don't know the extent of the damage and you still do not. The death toll stands right now at around 140-150k. It is estimated by people I'm going to bet are more reliable than Mike that it could go up to 400,000 before the environmental repercussions are fully felt. Any statement that the extent of the damage can be known in any significant way prior to having enough boots on the ground (and we're talking about a lot of coastline) is blowing smoke. If I were to say, "earthquake in the middle of nowhere, Persia," I'd laugh my ass off at anyone who replies, "Oh, I knew it would be at least 30,000 people within minutes of the quake, because I know what an earthquake does in the middle of nowhere, Persia."

Oh, yes. We know that there will be many casualties on hand, but even then, we do not know immediately how many (weren't the initial estimates of 9/11 deaths somewhere in the 10s of thousands?), nor do we know precisely what can be done, how it will be done or how much money we can pull together to do it.

Frankly, we also don't know how the newly-parsimonious Democrats would react to pledging, say, 100 million dollars right off. Much less 350 million.

Assertion: Mike holds the deaths of innocent Iraqis up as a tragedy. It is and he does whether that was his full intention or what have you. Interesting that the death of Israeli school children doesn't make the thread. Interesting that the absolute number of lives saved by not having a guy who murdered 300k+ people around, WMDs or not, doesn't make the thread.

Yes, the death of innocent people is a tragedy. One repercussion of our investment in smart bombs and the like is that they minimize the casualties of innocents. I doubt that will make Mike's points either. Compare Russia's actions in Chechnya to ours throughout the Middle East. And Chechnya hasn't had elections (like Afghanistan) or having them soon (like Iraq). Which system, over the long run, is likely to kill less people: democracies, imperfect as they may be (see Pakistan, Turkey, France), or dictatorships (see China, Russia, Iraq). We killed a lot of innocents in Japan and Germany, too, bud. Hate to say it. But are you going to argue that it wasn't a good idea to go ahead with the bombing?

But that's typically not an issue for the left. After all, they routinely blow by the 100 million or so murdered by Socialism with the dismissal, "They were idealistic." Not that I'm saying Mike would make that point (at least not publicly). But it's a recurring trait.

So the question on deaths is: are we talking that there are deaths or what is going to minimize the number of deaths? If American GI's whom all liberals love must kill some innocents so that more innocents -- there's and ours -- can be saved, then that's what we have to live with.

Malaria: One word: DDT. You want to stop malaria? Forget the drugs. Spray. It's the cheapest, most effective way to deal with the problem by a long shot. And it's effects on the environment are about as well documented as Kinsey's reports on American sexuality. But you won't find Mike arguing for the continued use of DDT. Here's a questions though: of the people who spent time in the trucks actually spraying DDT, is there any information that shows they personally had higher incidences of cancer or other effects? If not, why not? In Sweden they found an "association" with a type of lymphoma. Given that you had wide and heavy exposure and that we should have 50 years of data that's not showing a lot of harm, that's not much to excuse the deaths of millions around the world since the banning of DDT - a banning the left liberals in America still support. Estimates in regular circumstances show around 1 million deaths per year from malaria. Add that to the abortions, and I don't think you on the left have much to say about the 20,000 terrorists or, hell, even 200,000 terrorists killed in Iraq and Afghanistan over the last three years. We're still doing better than you. And don't try to pull the "capitalism kills" meme. It's "capitalism run by socialists" that kills. Because anything that touches socialism gets killed. Ask an old Parisian in the summer.

So the giving by celebrities/billionaires/and the US government in all, probably wouldn't make up for the genocidal catastrophe that has resulted over the last several decades as a result of left-wing propaganda on the environment and DDT and malaria in particular.

The U.S. doesn't give enough: well, the 40percent quibbled over has to do, I think, with the U.N.'s budget for this sort of thing. But American churches (I know, they're all evil), give more in direct foreign aid every year than the entire UN's budget. And they don't even get to rape 11 year old African girls for their money. Mike, like too many on the left, seems to miss the private giving done in America. Those numbers, from foundations or direct action (like Amazon.com) amount to an enormous amount of funding. Let's not also forget that private funding is typically more efficient than beauracractic funding, so a dollar spent privately more often goes longer than a dollar spent publicly. And of course, let's also not forget that the evil capitalistic system allows that giving - both public and private - to occur. How much giving was done by the Soviets - other than to guerrillas that liberals admired? Oh, that's right, they were too busy dealing with the discounted wheat we were sending them to make it though the winter.

Finally (finally!), Mike dismisses the contribution of America's military to world peace and a better economic system. Now that they aren't in power, the world policing thing just sticks in their craw (the difference in our position now is that we think we MUST do this and are trying to go about the distasteful like adults, whereas liberals used to think it was a swell idea.) But you are able to go to work because of the cops. You are able to carry on about your life because of the cops. You are safe because of the cops. Without the cops you lose time and wealth figuring out ways to deal with life. Such is as it is for Europe whether they admit it or not (remember the whole Minuteman missle fiasco?). That is why they don't want us to remove our troops from their soil. It's easier for them to survive a belligerent Russia with American GI's parked over yonder. And easier to smirk about how we don't have enough troops in Iraq.

Such as it is for the left in general, criticizing and attacking the very system that makes their ability to moan and whine possible.

Mike talks of dissent: news for you -- there's no dissent in most of the world. And very little even in Europe. Here, it just helps to have a decent argument.

Posted by: Grayson at January 4, 2005 7:02 PM

That mike sure is sharp isn't he. (first comment) How could such a loser live in my country??? The only people who have been slaughtered in Iraq since the deposition of Saddam have been innocents at the hands of Islamic Fascists and Islamic Fascists at the hands of my fellow Americans. I am so proud of our boys! mike... I'm not so proud of...what a sad use of protein.

Posted by: dougrc [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 4, 2005 7:12 PM

Mike,

Too funny. You should be writing for Frank J, not emoting here.

But you've confirmed my suspicion: you've never met, or worked for, a real manager, and think Teddy, Bill, and John K. are not only the norm but the optimum.

If you really believe that the proper optomizing function is (press adulation)/(actual effort) you belong with your soul-mates at the United Nations. Why, just today they had a meeting at which they decided where to order the furniture for the not-yet-scheduled meeting at which they will decide which five-star resort to use for the meeting at which they will parcel out assignments for determining what might possibly be done to help those poor people. They got really good press for it.

Regards,
Ric

Posted by: Ric Locke [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 4, 2005 7:50 PM

*Applauds*

Grayson has put all of my posts to shame with this one. I envy you, man. I couldn't have said it any better myself.

"That is why they don't want us to remove our troops from their soil."

The only thing that I can add is that the German economy is shitty already. For the 11th straight month, Germany has lost jobs and their unemployment rate just rose to 10.8% which is double our rate. When our much reviled military presence there finally leaves, the German economy will be further devastated from our base closures when they don't have our troops' dollars circulating in their banks. What does Rammstein(the base or the German "musicians") think about our evil military industrial complex now? You socialist biznatches in the EU gonna get punk'd some more......Bushie-style

Posted by: reagan80 at January 4, 2005 8:00 PM

DDT has absolutely no ill effects on humans at up to 10 times normal exposure levels. In one study, vounteers ingested DDT for 2 years with no ill effects. During the period that DDT was in use in the U.S., the incidence of liver cancer fell 30%.

DDT is the most effective and affordable pesticide for repelling mosqitoes. It absolutely wipes out malaria where its use is allowed. The 1,000,000 plus deaths annually from malaria are a result soley of the left's & the environmentalist's successful scare campaign against DDT. People like the entity "Mike" who is posting here are the foot-soldiers and fodder of those movements - swallowing whole and regurgitating their lies to anyone naive enough to fall for them. They are responsible for the deaths of millions around the globe.

Posted by: AisA at January 5, 2005 5:51 AM

I doubt that trying to convince Mike that President Bush (elected, not selected) is not heardhearted.

Had the President ponied up $200,000,000 two hours after the waves hit Mike would be here with some link to Salon or The Nation or Guerilla News where we could find a story about how the US forces at Diego Garcia had advance warning or that Poppy Bush and his Carlyle / Cocono Cronies had plans for a transIndonesian oil pipeline.

Posted by: Tim at January 5, 2005 2:23 PM

Gee, I didn't notice the millions of dead after I banned DDT. Bad move eh?

Grayson you are a sane sounding person writing insane things. Please, leave me out of your ramblings. I have said nothing about 3/4 of what you attribute to me. What is the matter with you? Or maybe you sould use my other persona and just change mike to straw man. It will at least make you look truthful if if you are not. Thanks.

Posted by: mike at January 5, 2005 5:11 PM

"Gee, I didn't notice the millions of dead after I banned DDT. Bad move eh?"

Very bad move, and the statement above is: 1)typical of the dismissive attitude of the left and the environmentalists toward human life, and 2) reveals their true agenda. They will rant and whine incessantly about "the horrors" of killing Iraqi civilians, because that is an act they can blame on a policy of the right. But they are utterly indifferent to the massive suffering and death caused by their own policies, because the fact is they hate man and his greatest successes - science, technology and the most brilliant of all achievements: America.

Observe that what motivates an entity like "Mike" is not concern over the fate of those stricken by the tsunami, but rather an opportunity to criticize America. They salivate over ANY opportunity to criticize America. What they deserve is a one-way ticket to one of those nations that represent the practical consequences of their view of man: North Korea, for instance.

Posted by: AisA at January 6, 2005 4:50 AM

AisA-

Please read you last post and try to find any support for the things you have said in any of my posts and then get back to me.

"Gee, I banned DDT" is humor you fool. I did not ban DDT, I am not the "left", nor am i an environmentalist. i think the verdict is still out on global warming and that current economic conditions that effect the CURRENT population must not be dismissed. I think the current fear of chemicals and radiaton is nuts. I favor restarting our nulear power program, I favor a lot of things that separate me from the "left" as you call it. What separates me from you though is that I don't think YOU are the "right". You are a complex bundle of beliefs, some good, some stupid, some ill thought out, and mostly all your own. I don't think you signed on with a cabal.

I find the death of those caught in a natural disaster tragic, I find the death of those caught in a political disaster tragic too. To complain about the agent of destruction in one case is futile and in the other meaningful (to some degree, it is called DISSENT and it is an important facit of our democracy). So do you wish me to yell at the ocean and president Bush? Or may I forgo the yelling at the ocean?

Please advise.

Posted by: mike at January 6, 2005 11:02 AM

Go ahead and yell at the ocean if you like, Mike, whatever the hell that means. You accuse Grayson of writing insane things, so I thought I'd share some other fine examples:

"I knew there were over 100 thousand deaths the second I heard the magnitude of the quake and the location."

"Ya know Ray, I wonder if you would send back a delivery to your folks home of some government subsidized medicine that was needed to treat their MS or some other illness. I wonder......"

"If your defensiveness causes you to feel that I am diminishing your President or our country or the disaster, by inferring that I think there is ONLY one way to “visualize” this tragedy you are being disingenuous in the service of your lame cause: the thoughtless adulation of America."

"I would suggest that you are having flashbacks but young as you are I could not imagine you flashing back to anything other than your mom's dry, hard, non-nurturing nipple that never left you sated."

"W wanted to know if the US could tie our assistance to future sanctions on the birth control practices of these countries."

"Well two packages of jello does feed a family of four and if it is strawberry the kids will like it too."

Now that's insanity!

Posted by: Rob at January 6, 2005 11:19 AM

Rob

You too, like AisA seem to have trouble with certain concepts like irony. or you are 12.

I may be making points, and if the person reading it in context, chooses, he will see the humor overlaying it (or not) and will also see the deeper point. (or not)

If you think I believe Jello will play a role in disater relief, you are dumber than you appear to be.

I could have been wrong in my quick estimate about number of deaths but I was not, was I. I'm not a seismologist but tidal waves and undersea earthquakes go hand and hand. I don't think this was much of a leap of faith. I suppose you could be accusing me of lying about the whole process but that would be based on your ignorance and nothing more, since I did not see you in the room with me when I got the news.

The only other point about this I will make is on foreign aid and religion.

Are you unaware that the Bush adminitration's first policy decision was to restrict birth control aid and other related medical aid to clinics overseas that don't promote abstinence and do council for abortion?

So what is insane? Please advise?

Posted by: mike at January 6, 2005 12:13 PM

mike, I am reminded of The Black Eyed Peas's song, "Shut Up," because it is what you must do. The noxious fumes spewed forth by your hackneyed rhetoric is the direct cause of global warming, which will raise sea levels causing more tsunamis. "Great" use of Spell Check, though!

P.S. We give the most in individual contributions, so "Shut Up, just Shut Up, Shut Up..."

Posted by: perfectd at January 6, 2005 8:54 PM